Curse

Improvavel · Mar 26, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Anet could also create a second pool of TRP that came from the XTH. Those TRP could either be traded for PvP unlocks but not golden flames (and could be used in conjunction with the normal pool TRP for the purpose of unlocks) or be redeemed for zaishen keys that couldn't be traded.

A simpler method would be just making the rewards from the XTH come in the form of untradeable zkeys instead of TRP. Keys acquired with balthazar faction and other TRP could still be traded.

Martin Alvito · Mar 27, 2009, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I fail to see how its an "inconveniece". I've heard this argument all the time for keeping abusive things in Guild Wars. The stuff should not exist to begin with. Anet has always preached against RMT, and not only is this RMT, it is abusive RMT.

Maybe I'm not being clear here. My point is that making zkeys untradeable has the undesirable effect of rewarding all of the players that jumped on the "max the zkey bandwagon" early and effectively makes it impossible for anyone else to max the title. By making zkeys untradeable you artificially inflate the value of those accounts that have maxed or nearly maxed the title, which you probably do not want to do.

By contrast, pulling XTH from the game directly punishes the abusers of the system (their revenue stream drops to zero) and merely inconveniences players using the system fairly. XTH is not a huge windfall for the legitimate player; at worst, such a player could replace the lost income with a few hours of play each month if desired.

The conclusion is that removing XTH is a superior solution to making zkeys untradeable.

DreamWind · Mar 27, 2009, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The conclusion is that removing XTH is a superior solution to making zkeys untradeable.

Ah ok my bad...we are on the same page. The problem is that Anet has a history of keeping abusive destructive things in their game as long as enough people enjoy it. Frown.

EPO Bot · Mar 27, 2009, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Stop it already. I don't farm.I don't powertrade. I have only one PVE character. So let me pleeease have my six free Zkeys every month.

Amnel Ithtirsol · Mar 27, 2009, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

Stop it already. I don't farm.I don't powertrade. I have only one PVE character. So let me pleeease have my six free Zkeys every month.

I won't worry too much about it.
It's highly unlikely for ANet to pull the plug on their steady income just because its hurting the "economy" and similar to RMT.
This is not UB or SF.

Red Sonya · Mar 27, 2009, 10:15 AM // 10:15

What they should do is just give title points for the XTH not keys. This would solve the whole issue for those going for the title. Those that are just abusing it for the money would have to find other means like PVPing with us and taking the beating and pounding they deserve.

Toffin · Mar 27, 2009, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Here is my situation about zkeys:

Prior to the XTH I had 7 accounts(5 all campaigns/expansions) all full with different items from events. My main account alone has 21 char slots, and the others at 12-16 chars slots all bought with the add an extra char for $9.99. I started purchasing accounts from Bestbuy/Newegg for 9.99 since it is a lot cheaper for 4 chars(45*4+40 item spaces), than it is for me to buy 1 char and get a whole 45 item spaces. So my question then to you

If anyone knows me in game, I am a huge packrat. Yeah you might tell me to sell some of the stuff I have, but I rather help out a guildie when they say "anyone have a drake flesh or a titan gem to help me out?". Yes I have stated I have 33 accounts. The XTH is a bonus to me, do I sell my zkeys? one word "No". Instead I help friends who are trying to max that title out every month.

Im still running out of space. Guild Events/Community Events/and a Wisdom Service. So if I work hard for my 9.99 in real life, I am justified that I can spend my hard earned 9.99 on anything I want. If they take away the XTH its one less thing I can help guildies/friends with for titles. Oh and yes those that PvP are QQing about this because it is driving down the value, oops. Want to join a R8/10+ gvg/ha group, btw im R1, lets see that happen...

Cry me a river about value of items ingame. Im still sitting on 20 Sup Absorbs waiting for them to go back to 100k like it was back in the day.

Have some more fun QQing now.

wu is me · Mar 29, 2009, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toffin

Here is my situation about zkeys:

Prior to the XTH I had 7 accounts(5 all campaigns/expansions) all full with different items from events. My main account alone has 21 char slots, and the others at 12-16 chars slots all bought with the add an extra char for $9.99. I started purchasing accounts from Bestbuy/Newegg for 9.99 since it is a lot cheaper for 4 chars(45*4+40 item spaces), than it is for me to buy 1 char and get a whole 45 item spaces. So my question then to you

If anyone knows me in game, I am a huge packrat. Yeah you might tell me to sell some of the stuff I have, but I rather help out a guildie when they say "anyone have a drake flesh or a titan gem to help me out?". Yes I have stated I have 33 accounts. The XTH is a bonus to me, do I sell my zkeys? one word "No". Instead I help friends who are trying to max that title out every month.

Im still running out of space. Guild Events/Community Events/and a Wisdom Service. So if I work hard for my 9.99 in real life, I am justified that I can spend my hard earned 9.99 on anything I want. If they take away the XTH its one less thing I can help guildies/friends with for titles. Oh and yes those that PvP are QQing about this because it is driving down the value, oops. Want to join a R8/10+ gvg/ha group, btw im R1, lets see that happen...

Cry me a river about value of items ingame. Im still sitting on 20 Sup Absorbs waiting for them to go back to 100k like it was back in the day.

Have some more fun QQing now.

Absolutely correct.

We can spend our hard earned money on whatever we want! Including hiring hitmen, paying off drug traffickers, suicide bombings, mob 'protection'...

But of course we can't... and with good reason.

So here we aren't discussing whether or not you're able (ethically or ability wise) spend your money on virtual loot, the discussion is on whether you should be allowed to or not.

Have some more fun thinking about that

under a bodhi tree

EPO Bot · Mar 29, 2009, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toffin

Here is my situation about zkeys:

Prior to the XTH I had 7 accounts(5 all campaigns/expansions) all full with different items from events. My main account alone has 21 char slots, and the others at 12-16 chars slots all bought with the add an extra char for $9.99. I started purchasing accounts from Bestbuy/Newegg for 9.99 since it is a lot cheaper for 4 chars(45*4+40 item spaces), than it is for me to buy 1 char and get a whole 45 item spaces. So my question then to you

If anyone knows me in game, I am a huge packrat. Yeah you might tell me to sell some of the stuff I have, but I rather help out a guildie when they say "anyone have a drake flesh or a titan gem to help me out?". Yes I have stated I have 33 accounts. The XTH is a bonus to me, do I sell my zkeys? one word "No". Instead I help friends who are trying to max that title out every month.

Im still running out of space. Guild Events/Community Events/and a Wisdom Service. So if I work hard for my 9.99 in real life, I am justified that I can spend my hard earned 9.99 on anything I want. If they take away the XTH its one less thing I can help guildies/friends with for titles. Oh and yes those that PvP are QQing about this because it is driving down the value, oops. Want to join a R8/10+ gvg/ha group, btw im R1, lets see that happen...

Cry me a river about value of items ingame. Im still sitting on 20 Sup Absorbs waiting for them to go back to 100k like it was back in the day.

Have some more fun QQing now.

33 accounts... That's just not human. Does Anet really need to calculate in such insane behavior when they introduce a feature? XTH was designed with somewhat sane people in mind: Those who buy the game once and play it. This whole topic is about high end, multi-account nutjobs QQing about thier massive stacks of ecto losing value. One account players do not face such player generated issues so they should not be punished by losing their monthly Zkeys because some people have more then one or two accounts and somehow think they are the norm.

The whole XTH economy problem is a player generated thing. QQ about them.

upier · Mar 29, 2009, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

Absolutely correct.

We can spend our hard earned money on whatever we want! Including hiring hitmen, paying off drug traffickers, suicide bombings, mob 'protection'...

But of course we can't... and with good reason.

So here we aren't discussing whether or not you're able (ethically or ability wise) spend your money on virtual loot, the discussion is on whether you should be allowed to or not.

Have some more fun thinking about that

under a bodhi tree

Toffy is putting his money where his mouth is.
I can imagine that if A.Net is reading this, they consider his argument to be among the strongest ones here.

pumpkin pie · Mar 29, 2009, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

Stop it already. I don't farm.I don't powertrade. I have only one PVE character. So let me pleeease have my six free Zkeys every month.

don't worry, XTH is what keep player disillusion that they belong to part of some e-sport that they don't actually have anything to do with to keep these players hang on to the game

its going to stay.

Half year ago, if you ask me if I'd by Guild Wars 2, without blinking I'd put dow an full payment for it and patiently waits for its arrival. Now, this moment, i am serious considering not purchasing Guild Wars 2 at all. Simply too many disappointments.

Zebideedee · Mar 29, 2009, 10:33 AM // 10:33

I forgot about it the past 2 months, thats pretty much how I feel about it, some people sadly have multiple a/c's for it though (greed, it's a sin lol)

zwei2stein · Mar 29, 2009, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Toffy is putting his money where his mouth is.
I can imagine that if A.Net is reading this, they consider his argument to be among the strongest ones here.

They probably see spike in sales at end of each months few days before XTH closes. And they know that it pays their wages. And they know that @ 85 RP per month it takes 50 accounts running XTH two years to max zkey title.

Word of player buying guild worth of accounts has a lot of weight ... enough weight to ignore 50 other players complaining. Toffy here is prime example.

So anything being made that ends in extra accounts being useless is out of question. That means untradeable zkeys are not gonna happen. Points no longer giving zkeys are not gonna happen. XTH closing is not gonna happen. Nothing.

Martin Alvito · Mar 29, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Word of player buying guild worth of accounts has a lot of weight ... enough weight to ignore 50 other players complaining. Toffy here is prime example.

Misguided short term thinking.

If they are in desperate financial straits and must have the revenue to weather the storm until GW2 is released, that's one thing.

If not, they are shooting themselves in the foot. It makes more sense to sell ten expensive accounts in the new game than fifty cheap ones in the old game. Especially since you can sell expansions in the new game. The accounts purchased for XTH purposes will never be upsold in any way.

GW is designed to be a comparatively casual game. This just does not mix with giving the rich kid on the block a huge in-game advantage. I could buy all those accounts; I make more than enough money. I choose not to; it's a matter of principle. Further, I will choose not to purchase a sequel if this sort of thing continues, and I am certain that I am not alone on this score.

As the devs, you'd rather make toffy mad because: a) you've already got his money and he can't get it back, and b) he's going to want to see exactly the same thing in the new game, and you're incentivized not to give him what he wants initially.

moriz · Mar 29, 2009, 03:11 PM // 15:11

please state what this advantage is kthx. last time i checked, you can fully equip a character with max gear for about 25k. you can easily find that much gold just by playing through the game, no farming/powertrading involved.

zwei2stein · Mar 29, 2009, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Misguided short term thinking.

If they are in desperate financial straits and must have the revenue to weather the storm until GW2 is released, that's one thing.

If not, they are shooting themselves in the foot. It makes more sense to sell ten expensive accounts in the new game than fifty cheap ones in the old game. Especially since you can sell expansions in the new game. The accounts purchased for XTH purposes will never be upsold in any way.

GW is designed to be a comparatively casual game. This just does not mix with giving the rich kid on the block a huge in-game advantage. I could buy all those accounts; I make more than enough money. I choose not to; it's a matter of principle. Further, I will choose not to purchase a sequel if this sort of thing continues, and I am certain that I am not alone on this score.

As the devs, you'd rather make toffy mad because: a) you've already got his money and he can't get it back, and b) he's going to want to see exactly the same thing in the new game, and you're incentivized not to give him what he wants initially.

But they are not gonna sell 10 pimped accounts. Veterans already got em. Unless to new players, which could not care less about someone complaining about economy. Also, there is no difference between selling 10 pricey or 50 cheap ... money is money. And its not like they have to make decidion to make. They can happily sell accounts both to new players which will get pimped eventually (or might not because they will not like game) and to old players which will serve as mules or xth slaves and will not get pimped in any way.

And in GW, Rich kind does get zero advantage except pixels. You can spawn all weapons you will ever need with /bonus command, or in pvp equipment screen. What advantage over this can ingame money buy you? gold /zrank instead of bronze? Glowing gloves that are equal to gloves from boreal station or found at collectors?

Guy X, should he play next game will want extra, indeed. But he is gonna pay extra. I repeat: that kind will pay extra. Do you let RMT get it or will you get it yourself, in controlled fashion? See, you do not want to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that customer over. and Definitelly not because someone who already game them money (you are at same boat as him; they have all your money too) is complaining. And our Mr. X might buy even more accounts in near future. You will not. He is also likely to spend assload money on GW2 in far future, you are, again, not. And you will get over it eventually anyway. He would likely not.

Really, longterm thinking. You dont piss best customers. Just like mc donalds staff smiles at smelly nasty blobs of fat instead of kicking em out for sake of other customers.

Martin Alvito · Mar 29, 2009, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

But they are not gonna sell 10 pimped accounts. Veterans already got em.

Reread. My point was: they are driving people away from GW2. You make more money over the long haul by retaining your customer base, not by pandering to a select few for short term gains at the expense of everyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

And in GW, Rich kind does get zero advantage except pixels. You can spawn all weapons you will ever need with /bonus command, or in pvp equipment screen. What advantage over this can ingame money buy you? gold /zrank instead of bronze? Glowing gloves that are equal to gloves from boreal station or found at collectors?

People care about this stuff. In fact, a lot more of the audience cares about this stuff than who wins the monthly.

@ moriz: This is the advantage. It's simple: people care about this stuff. If you let people pay real money to get stuff that other players want, those players will leave. A larger share of the audience wants to have the nice shinies than you seem to think. If it becomes impossible for that segment of the audience to acquire the status symbols (without dropping IRL cash), that segment of the audience will find another game where they don't have to spend money to get them. Just because you don't care does not mean that the devs should not. We've established that you don't care. But you're not everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Guy X, should he play next game will want extra, indeed. But he is gonna pay extra. I repeat: that kind will pay extra. Do you let RMT get it or will you get it yourself, in controlled fashion?

You redesign the game and make it so that you can only earn shinies for accomplishments. You further make it so that shinies are non-transferable. In short: you get rid of drops and the economy entirely, eliminating RMT.

The title system has the right concept, but it falls woefully short of the efficient solution. Lose the titles and replace them WITH the shinies for accomplishments. Then the community will properly sneer at those who purchase accounts (just as they sneer at purchased gold cape trim). You win as the developer by stripping faux accomplishments of legitimacy, and not by legalizing RMT.

Legalizing RMT will drive away 50-80% of the audience and leave ANet bankrupt. It's like the dark side of the Force: once you start down that path...

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Really, longterm thinking. You dont piss best customers. Just like mc donalds staff smiles at smelly nasty blobs of fat instead of kicking em out for sake of other customers.

That's a large market because it's inexpensive. Turn your game into an RMT haven and it becomes an expensive luxury market. That's the kiss of death for a game with huge development costs. Not enough people will buy the game to enable the developer to float the debt payments long enough to acquire the long term influx of RMT cash from players.

moriz · Mar 29, 2009, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

This is the advantage. It's simple: people care about this stuff. If you let people pay real money to get stuff that other players want, those players will leave. A larger share of the audience wants to have the nice shinies than you seem to think. If it becomes impossible for that segment of the audience to acquire the status symbols (without dropping IRL cash), that segment of the audience will find another game where they don't have to spend money to get them. Just because you don't care does not mean that the devs should not. We've established that you don't care. But you're not everyone.

so you concede that there is no advantage, since your "advantage" is pure vanity, and vanity is not the way success in this game is measured.

btw, the devs DON'T care. that's why they made vanity items to be vanity items: there's no statistical advantage attached to those items. if they DO care for such things, they would've made them to confer an actual advantage. GW is a different kind of game. if people want to play it to collect shiny items, then let them go nuts and do it. however, they do so with the full knowledge of the fact that this playstyle is not encouraged, and the devs have no obligation to do anything for it.

heck, this is what i find really funny about people who want to play GW as an economic simulation: just a few months ago, every one of them were complaining that prices were deflating. rare and expensive items were no longer expensive. now that prices are rising (and no, they are not skyrocketting. please stop exaggerating), those people are complaining that expensive items are expensive again. i think i've figured it out now: those who play GW as an economy simulator will NEVER be satisfied, purely because GW is not meant to be one.

lastly, buying more accounts for potential ingame gains is not RMT. you've bought the privilege to use that account, and playing the XTH is one of the benefits of that account. if you consider RMT to be anything that will give a user ingame currency, the anet should stop selling GW accounts period. after all, all accounts can make ingame gold (even my pvp only account can make money through zkeys), and by your definition, that's RMT isn't it? if that's the case, that's pretty dumb for obvious reasons.

upier · Mar 29, 2009, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

@ moriz: This is the advantage. It's simple: people care about this stuff. If you let people pay real money to get stuff that other players want, those players will leave. A larger share of the audience wants to have the nice shinies than you seem to think. If it becomes impossible for that segment of the audience to acquire the status symbols (without dropping IRL cash), that segment of the audience will find another game where they don't have to spend money to get them. Just because you don't care does not mean that the devs should not. We've established that you don't care. But you're not everyone.

What you seem to be forgetting is what items we are dealing with.
Like previously noted - we are dealing with luxury or vanity items.
And part of their appeal is that they are either limited by supply or by their high price. The only thing that possibly changes with the massive influx of gold is who is able to obtain them.
What doesn't change is how many people are able to obtain them.
We are still dealing with a very small number.

Martin Alvito · Mar 29, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

so you concede that there is no advantage, since your "advantage" is pure vanity, and vanity is not the way success in this game is measured.

Oh? By whose standard? Yours? The community on QQ forums?

There are lots of ways to measure success, yours isn't the only one, and many (most?) people could care less about your yardstick.

Lots of people care about this stuff. Every UWSC/FoWSC player, every player that spends time in Kamadan AD1 regularly, every DoA player, every dungeon runner, every map runner. You're outnumbered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

btw, the devs DON'T care. that's why they made vanity items to be vanity items: there's no statistical advantage attached to those items. if they DO care for such things, they would've made them to confer an actual advantage.

However, they also made super-rare shinies that people fight over, and they haven't watered down their value. This implies that they recognize that there is a (large) market for this sort of thing and that they need to satisfy it in order to maximize the number of players buying their game. The devs have reason to care, and have demonstrated that they care through their actions. This concept is called revealed preference.

Sure, they don't have to do anything to support this market. But they have financial incentives to do so - they want to sell GW2 to as many people as possible. What I'm saying here is that XTH is a stupid profit-maximization strategy unless the company will go bankrupt without selling a ton of cheap accounts to meet immediate debt payments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i think i've figured it out now: those who play GW as an economy simulator will NEVER be satisfied, purely because GW is not meant to be one.

There will always be dissatisfaction with shifts in the status quo, unless they are strictly Pareto-improving (make everyone better off and no one worse off). Which almost never happens. I could make the same basic argument about the PvP community and nerfs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

you've bought the privilege to use that account, and playing the XTH is one of the benefits of that account. if you consider RMT to be anything that will give a user ingame currency, the anet should stop selling GW accounts period.

Did you know that if you start from absurd premises and then apply logic, you arrive at absurd conclusions? Setting up a straw man and beating it down impresses no one.

The problem is that one person can purchase dozens of accounts and then transfer the in-game benefits to a single account. That's trading RL cash for in-game cash. That's RMT. You've still done nothing to address this, except to claim that no one cares because you don't. That doesn't follow logically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Like previously noted - we are dealing with luxury or vanity items...We are still dealing with a very small number.

Depends on which ones we are talking about. The devs created tons of limited miniatures that were given out in large quantities. They created items like Tormented gear, FoW armor, chaos gloves, etc. as well. They also created extremely rare drops and stocked dungeon chests and the end chests of FoW and UW with them.

Items that cannot be farmed have been hit first. Items that cannot be farmed quickly (ultra-rare drops) will be next. With enough zkeys kicking around, the time price associated with acquiring all valuable in-game items through any means other than farming them directly will keep increasing.

And you know what's really tough about inflation? Once the expectation of inflation is created, it is incredibly difficult to get rid of. People change their behavior in a fashion that tends to lead to more inflation.